The UNCrushed Podcast #2: Tiffani Bova, Growth & Innovation Evangelist Salesforce

“I looked in the mirror, I was getting ready to go to work, and all of a sudden the person I saw was...I wasn't laughing, I wasn't having fun, I hadn't seen my friends. I was just traveling, I was just grinding”

 
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Burnout is the largest threat to the quality of work your team can produce. Tiffani Bova of Salesforce has been taking a close look at the burnout problem. Her findings have been insightful and instrumental in the current state of sales. In this episode of UNCrushed, Tiffani and James discuss the findings from the latest burnout survey. Will this save you from burnout? No. Only your culture can do that. Tiffani talks about real burnout experiences, statistics, common causes of burnout, and its correlation with a metric driven culture that stunts growth and innovation.

PODCAST RECORDING

check out tiffani’s podcast ‘what’s next!’ here. Connect with TIFFANI at TIFFANBOVA.COM on instagram, twitter and linkedin.


Get the UNCrushed Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and Spotify.

Like this episode? Be sure to leave a ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ review and share with your friends! You can connect with host James Buckley on Twitter and LinkedIn.


TIMESTAMPS

00:00 -  Intro to Tiffani

04:33 -  Creating Your Own Job: Salesforce Created a Job for Tiffani

07:43 -  How Tiffani Found Her Super Powers

13:22 -  How Tiffani Reached Her Burnout Tipping Point

17:27 -  Why Mental Wellness Is underrepresented in Sales World

21:08 -  Why is Sales the most Stressful job?

26:56 -  How to Prevent Burnout

31:07 -  Management Policies That Prevent Burnout & Who Is Responsible for them

35:21 -  Sales Managers Fall into Trap that hinders their Team

40:23 -  Toxic Customer Service Metrics vs. Productive Customer Service Metrics

54:33 -  Tiffani's What's Next Podcast

55:20 -  Tiffani's Advice to those struggling in their job


FULL TRANSCRIPT

James Buckley:

Hi podcast nation. Thanks a lot for joining us once again another episode of UNCrushed coming your way. We have a very special guest today, I'd like to introduce Tiffani Bova:. Tiffani is incredible. She's the author of Growth IQ, a book about the 10 paths to business success, and the sequences which to take them. She's currently a thought leader at Salesforce, the CRM that seems to be taking over the planet. Where she focuses on growth and innovation, and the National Diversity Council calls Tiffani one of the most powerful and influential women the tate of California. Hello Tiffani, thank you for being on the show.


Tiffani Bova:

Thank you for having me.


James Buckley:

Absolutely. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, what do you, why do you do it, why does it matter? And why is it important for everyone to listen?


Tiffani Bova:

All three simultaneously.


James Buckley:

All at the same time.


Tiffani Bova:

All at the same time.


Tiffani Bova:

I'd say that I have the wonderful pleasure of traveling around the world meeting all kinds of interesting entrepreneurs, and big business and executives, and people who are on the path of their career. It just inspires me every day to show up and try to make a difference. This is a great opportunity for me to continue doing the same thing.


James Buckley:

Yeah, I appreciate that. We really love having experts like yourself on the show, because I think people have the wrong impression about what it is to be a professional in today's society. I'm looking forward to all the light that you can shed on that. Where did you go to school Tiffani?


Tiffani Bova:

I was born and raised in Hawaii.


James Buckley:

That's amazing.


Tiffani Bova:

I went to a high school by the name of Punahou, all the way through. It was a school that was from kindergarten through 12. There was a handful of us. I think there was like 45 of us that was preschool, all the way to the 12th grade. We were together, but we graduated with 315 people. Over time, we got more students to come in, but an amazing experience for sure.


James Buckley:

Yeah, definitely different the educational front. I'd imagine that there is quite a bit of collaboration that goes on between the older kids, and the younger kids. Interesting enough, my wife went to a very similar school, but Central Illinois, a little bit of a different setting.


Tiffani Bova:

Slightly different. It's just the ocean that's different. That's all.


James Buckley:

I want to talk about some of the things that you've been praised for the past a little bit, just to give our audience some more about Tiffani. Tell me about how you got started with Growth IQ, and what spawned that idea of these 10 paths to success?


Tiffani Bova:

I had been fortunate enough through my career. I realized early on that I was pretty good at setting. I stumbled into selling technology after selling all kinds of things before that. Once I found my way to technology, it was a great experience for me. I really enjoyed it. It was challenging, I felt like I was learning something every day, I was trying to solve really important challenges for businesses. It was an opportunity for me to travel and grow, and grow career-wise as well.


Tiffani Bova:

I started out as an individual contributing sales rep, and then I moved up the ranks. Then ended up running sales teams, and so selling hardware, and software, and then services. Then I started getting into marketing, so I have both sales and marketing, and then my last job if you will, on the practitioning side, I had sales service and marketing. It was this amazing opportunity for me to be forward looking towards the customer. More importantly this was 99, to sort of 2002. I was very early the cloud, so I worked for the U.S' largest web hosting company. We were three or four times the size of Rackspace, which tends to be one brand most people know.


James Buckley:

Yeah, very recognizable.


Tiffani Bova:

Very recognizable. I was a Eloqua's beta client, I was Constant Contact beta client, and so really early selling SaaS, and infrastructure as a service. It wasn't called those things then, but really transitioning comp plans to recurring revenue. Then my last role the corporate world was at gateway computers, I ran a division of Gateway Computers. Then I left there, and ended up being a research analyst at Gartner for a full decade. And Gartner is the world's largest analyst and consulting firm for tech companies, as well as the CIO type of client.


Tiffani Bova:

I made it all the way to being a research fellow. After a decade i said, "What do I want to do next?" Salesforce created a position for me to just continue sort of marrying my practitioning expertise, with my analyst expertise that I had learned if you will.


James Buckley:

Yeah.


Tiffani Bova:

And allowed me to do a very similar thing here. It's really a perfect situation for me. I couldn't be happier.


James Buckley:

The concept of companies creating a position for people I think is something that's still relatively rate, and unheard of the broad spectrum when it comes to enterprises. I think it's so fun to talk about people that create awareness, and brands, and become subject matter experts, so much so that companies that they go and speak with are like, "You know what? We have this idea for you." I love that concept, because I think that it really points to how valuable it is to self build, and create something that's built from you, but much larger than you the end, right? Salesforce, offering you a position that they've created specifically for your expertise is a great example of that.


Tiffani Bova:

It says two things. One, as an individual, you have to know what it is you even want to do.


James Buckley:

That's right.


Tiffani Bova:

You got to start there.


James Buckley:

That can be hard.


Tiffani Bova:

Which takes times.


James Buckley:

Years sometimes.


Tiffani Bova:

And I just say that over the course of my career it was a combination of learning what my strengths were, and as a friend of mine Naomi Simpsons says, and what my non-strengths were, instead of weaknesses.


James Buckley:

Nice. I like that. That's different.


Tiffani Bova:

It's sort of non-strengths. Taking those strengths and saying, "How do I double down there? And how do I focus my energy there? Versus trying to focus my energy on things I'm not very good at, to try to get better at?" Once I realized what I was really good at, and what my non-strengths were, then I could start to pivot, and take all my time and attention, and focus on those things that could start to raise my visibility with companies, and maybe even broader than that. I think until I did that I was sort of mixed the masses. It was just, I was somebody who was really good at a couple of things, but not strong enough to do this.


James Buckley:

A face the crowd.


Tiffani Bova:

And not strong enough to do that, but good at doing this. I said, "Hold on a second. What I really good at? How do I manifest or create a situation where I get to just wake up every day and be totally thrilled at what I get to call work."


James Buckley:

I love that you said that. I feel the same way every day when I wake up. I'm very proud of how far I've come, and I'm happy to do what I do. I think that's the part that a lot of business professionals today miss. I'll tell you a quick story.


James Buckley:

My wife is a forensic accountant. She has a master's forensic accounting. When we were at a session that was being held by the IRS, they were doing a presentation Nashville Tennessee, where I live. We were sitting in the car, and all of these financial experts started parking all around us. We get there early because we don't like to be rushed. We started seeing them get out of their cars, and they were just very ho-hum about walking into this thing that they had to be at. You could tell this misery just dripping off of me.


James Buckley:

I remember her looking at me the car and saying, "I never want to be one of those people." I said to her, "Then, what are you doing?" Far be it from me to criticize her. She does very well, I'm very proud of my wife for everything she's accomplished. She does love her job. She ended up going a completely different direction with it, which I respect immensely.


James Buckley:

To go back to you becoming an individual contributor, you spent all this time learning all these skills and developing this mastermind if you will. When did you realize that you had become a mountamover of sorts? How did Ironman get his superpowers so to speak?


Tiffani Bova:

I would say this, going back to what I was just talking about on what was I really strong at, what were my non-strengths? I learned my superpowers, and then I said, "Well, what I think it is, and what my clients think it is may be two totally different things." I started spending quite a bit of time listening to the feedback that I was getting. I was giving a number of keynotes a year, and I would get feedback when I would get off stage. It would be both verbal, but it could be via LinkedIn, or via twitter, vie an email.


Tiffani Bova:

They would start using terms, they would say, "What stood out for me?" Or, "Hi, I saw you last year, and I heard what you said, and this is what I did and it changed this for me." They started to actually define what my superpowers were, not what I thought my superpowers were.


James Buckley:

Interesting.


Tiffani Bova:

Because that's what's important.


James Buckley:

Right.


Tiffani Bova:

I think being very self aware of what strengths are, what your non-strengths are, and then saying, how can I take those superpowers, and amplify them. One of them was, I'm a good storyteller. How do I tell a story? It was, your content is really good, why don't you write a book? It's like, I'm not really a writer, I'm a speaker. Then I had to figure out, how do I transcribe my talking cadence and the way I tell a story on stage to actually do it on paper, 85,000 words? That's daunting, right?


James Buckley:

Absolutely. I understand completely. I have a lot of friends that are speakers, and they speak all the time. And one of the things that they will say is, "I don't read a lot. So I find that it would be very hypocritical for me to go and write a book. And be like, "Read my book?"" And you are like, "Did you read my book?" "No, I don't read."


Tiffani Bova:

I do read, and that's the second thing I'd say is that I realized i had to be a constant learner.


James Buckley:

Yes.


Tiffani Bova:

That always sort of-


James Buckley:

I love that.


Tiffani Bova:

Absorbing content from all directions, so whether it's a podcast, whether it's a book, an article, a blog, a tweet, whatever it might be.


James Buckley:

Sure.


Tiffani Bova:

I'll rat-hole myself right into some topic over the course of a day, and I come out of it knowing more. That's the point, as long as I'm staying curious, and I'm learning all the time, and my story is shifting and pivoting ever so slightly of the way I might give advice, or the examples I use is constantly iterating, because of all this amazing feedback I get, almost real time. Social media has allowed us to get feedback almost real time. Also things that people don't like.


James Buckley:

Unpopular opinions.


Tiffani Bova:

It's unpopular opinions, but it could be that I learned early on that culturally not all stories translate. To be very aware of where I was the world. Americanisms, student body left means nothing outside the United States. For those of you listening, it's a football term, American football, college football term. Ultimately you have to be aware of those things. If you just show you and go, "I'm going to give the same thing that I do a hundred times.


James Buckley:

Everywhere.


Tiffani Bova:

Everywhere. Then it really gives the message that you don't care enough, that if you are speaking in front of accountants, or lawyers, or technology people, or marketers, or sellers, or customer service people. That you change the stories that you are much more mindful of, the slides that you use, the way that you craft a story, and so that is going back to having to know a little bit about a lot. I'm a generalist, and I'm a specialist two categories, but the generalist allows me to cross and jump between topic very easily and quickly.


Tiffani Bova:

Then you have to know how to frame it a way that it's not authoritative, like I know I've done 10 years of research, and here is what I think. It's, I've spoken to a number of people- this is what they do all the time, and based on what they've said I've framed my position, or my take on it.


James Buckley:

Almost building some credibility behind your submission, right? Like here is what I've done, here is what I've learned, here is my submission, here is my suggestion, and here is why it's credible.


Tiffani Bova:

Then you sort of put it out there, then you have to wait.


James Buckley:

If they are presented the right way. To your point that fits your audience.


Tiffani Bova:

Then you get it back.


James Buckley:

Sure.


Tiffani Bova:

Yes, no, kind of, maybe not, right?


James Buckley:

That's right.


Tiffani Bova:

You have to be willing to not believe your own story.


James Buckley:

I love that.


Tiffani Bova:

You have to be willing to let people, otherwise then you are not really it for them. I'm a firm believer that anybody who gives a speech or even does a podcast like this. That we are taking 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 minutes of someone's life, and we are using that time. If you've wasted their time, what a terrible thing to do?


James Buckley:

Absolutely.


Tiffani Bova:

You can't make everybody happy, but I would hate it if the majority walked out going, "That was a total waste of my time." My goal is to say, "Was it informative, did it challenge the way you thought? Did it keep your attention? Did it make you think differently about something? Was it valuable some way? Do you feel like that was not absolutely a waste of your time?" If I could do that, that's-


James Buckley:

You've done a service.


Tiffani Bova:

I've done a service, yeah.


James Buckley:

The community at large, that said, let's get to the meat of it. I want to talk about burnout, because I know that's been a focus point for you. We did a survey, we sent out a survey asking how people felt about burnout, and we had 91 respondents. I'd like to cover some of those responses with you. What were your initial thoughts when you saw the numbers, if you had something that really stood out to you?


Tiffani Bova:

When I first made the suggestion that we should go and do this survey. A lot of it had to do with, I'm just going to go back to my own personal career. my twenties I didn't really know what I wanted to do. Like i said, I was selling and marketing whatever I could get my hands on. my thirties I had to grow up and get a real job and-


James Buckley:

Move out of mom's house.


Tiffani Bova:

Exactly, I had to move out of mom's house, which was really terrible. Through my thirties my goal was, make more money, get more acknowledgement, sort of more status the business if you will. I was a lead, I was a manager, I was a director, I was a VP.


James Buckley:

Growth.


Tiffani Bova:

Moving up the ladder making more money. my thirties that was my goal. During that time there was about a three and a half year period where I did not sleep my bed for seven straight nights, for three and a half years. I had not slept at home for three and a half years, for seven straight nights. I was grinding. I was working in Los Angeles, I was commuting to work Atlanta, I was turning Monday, Friday, I was home for two days.


James Buckley:

This is not sustainable.


Tiffani Bova:

Not sustainable. I was absolutely burning out, and I was the office at 7:00, I would work until 7:00, I was the meeting grind all the time. I was spending no time on myself, I had no time to actually do work. I wasn't aware that I was actually burning out. I just felt like, this is what you are going to do.


James Buckley:

This is the life.


Tiffani Bova:

This is the life.


James Buckley:

This is what it is to be a professional, right?


Tiffani Bova:

I was a senior vice president a publicly traded company. I was carrying the load of sales marketing and customer service. We were a $120,000,000 recurring revenue business.


James Buckley:

Goals achieved.


Tiffani Bova:

Goals achieved. The CEO was, we had executive meetings on Saturdays. He knew my mom's number, my home number. He knew how to find me.


James Buckley:

He was paging you, on your old pager.


Tiffani Bova:

I was absolutely feeling burnout. The day I made the decision to leave corporate America that kind of contributing role, I had sort of the life blood sucked right out of me. I had nothing left to give. I remember the day very vividly where I got up, I looked in the mirror, I was getting ready to go to work, and all of a sudden the person I saw was, I wasn't laughing, I wasn't having fun, I hadn't seen my friends. I was just traveling, and I was just grinding.


Tiffani Bova:

I said, "I have to get off this merry-go-round. Part of the reason I actually went to Gartner was, I had to get off the merry-go-round, I was an individual contributor, nobody reported to me, and I didn't carry a quota. It took me about three years to actually unwind my braon the pace that I was working.


James Buckley:

Three years.


Tiffani Bova:

It was about three years, but because I was-


James Buckley:

That's quite some time.


Tiffani Bova:

Because it was like, I felt like this is the pace I need to work. Even when I was in the middle of it, halfway through that 10 years, people would be like, "I don't know how you produce as much as you produce the time that you produce in." I learned that I was very efficient and effective with my time, but I got my weekends back, I got my life back, I sort of re-injected myself into my family and my friends, all of those things.


James Buckley:

That's good.


Tiffani Bova:

Once that started to happen, then I started to find my way onto what I wanted to do next. I really had to unwind a lot of habits that I had formed over time. I'm not saying that it took three full years for me to even wake back up. It was like six months later one thing would peel off, six months later two or three more things would peel off. You know what I'm saying?


James Buckley:

Sure, the layers.


Tiffani Bova:

The layers would peel away. It took me about three years to where I woke up one day and I went, "What do I want to do next?"


James Buckley:

I can breathe.


Tiffani Bova:

When you guys reached out and we started talking about this specifically the sales world, I think it's a completely underrepresented topic for people who carry a quota for a living.


James Buckley:

Absolutely.


Tiffani Bova:

That if we are not selling anything, the business goes out of business. The life of a salesperson is the responsibility of I have to sell, I have to bring money in the door, and if I don't people are going to lose their jobs. I might lose my job. It's 24/7. Customers, we have trained customers over time that no matter when they pay just call us, or email us as salespeople we answer.


Tiffani Bova:

It interrupts our day, our weekends, our family time, because we are constantly worried about that deal coming in. Have I responded time? If I don't respond time will my client go somewhere else? That responsibility is a heavy burden I think. I think I missed a tremendous opportunity as a sales leader to actually be aware of the grind that I was then putting on my teams.


James Buckley:

Because you were leading that example.


Tiffani Bova:

Because I was leading the example, number one. Number two, I wasn't sort of injecting that, we are going to take an hour, we are going to go do something fun, I'm going to break the grind.


James Buckley:

Disconnect for a moment.


Tiffani Bova:

Disconnect for a moment, and this is long before smartphones ... I mean, we barely had PalmPilots, and Blackberries.


James Buckley:

Blackberries, yeah. Sure.


Tiffani Bova:

Pagers. This is so ... I can't even imagine if I was still doing what I was doing today's world with the 24/7, always on, because already the balance now I have, I'm much more mindful, but I could get very caught in it again if I had to go back to doing that role.


James Buckley:

It's an easy thing to do. I think people post about it often. I say this is best practice pretty regularly now, but just based on this survey, I'm glad that I do it. I fall right into the prime demographic of this survey. My A of 37, it seems the highest percentage of participation for us was between 35 and 44. Then the role was highest percentage again, inside sales and outside sales, that's me. Then for the sales experience, the 50 plus had 10 or more years, and I fall right into all of those primary demographics.


Tiffani Bova:

That's right when you are starting to put your foot on the gas, right? You've been selling like ... I couldn't have ever expected my twenties to be climbing. It's different now I think many ways.


James Buckley:

Sure.


Tiffani Bova:

Because I've said, my twenties, I didn't know what I wanted to do. My thirties was all about money and sort of title. my forties it was really about getting my life back and what did I want to do next? Now I'm in my fifties, I'm older than you. I'm 53, and it was all about how do I give back?


James Buckley:

I love that progression.


Tiffani Bova:

That was my progression. I posted that on LinkedIn, and Twitter maybe 18 months ago. It was probably one of the most liked and shared post that I had done. Lots of people could back and go, "Well, I had a child my twenties, I got married my twenties." Theirs was a different timing.


James Buckley:

Yeah, and the path was different.


Tiffani Bova:

The path was different, but I think everyone understood that, some people now, millennials are much more oriented towards giving back earlier than maybe my generation was. I don't know, but I can only say that that was my path. I wonder what kind of leader, and manager I would be if I could go back into my thirties knowing what I know now.


James Buckley:

And having all the tools that we currently have.


Tiffani Bova:

And having all the tools we have now in order to help my people burn out.


James Buckley:

It would have been a different game indeed for you I'm sure.


Tiffani Bova:

Who knows? Right?


James Buckley:

Who knows? Yeah.


Tiffani Bova:

Only the people who worked for me could tell you whether it'd be better or worse, I don't know.


James Buckley:

Let's talk a little bit about stress right now, because that was the focus of our survey. At what point do people feel enough stress to feel like they are completely spent, just burnt out? I thoughts the results were really interesting, because they sort of varied age, but it was on the high end, no matter the age group, and no matter the role, it was still on the high end. There seems to be a heavy correlation between sales stress and burnout general. The role itself tends to be one of the more stressful roles when you are measuring on a scale of 1 to 10 how stressful are you?


James Buckley:

We didn't have anybody that put less than a five there, no matter the age. Tell us a little bit about why you think sales is the most stressful industry today, outside of being "a caring individual" with that sense of pressure. Do you think there is an expectation of perfection, like the first month for quarter three might not look as good as the second month of quarter three. Then there is that comparison, what did I do wrong? I think there is a self reflection there that companies tend to encourage that's not very healthy. What are your thoughts on that?


Tiffani Bova:

I'd say with sales, and I'll go back to what I was just saying a minute ago. If you are a sales rep, the pressure and stress you feel is almost daily. Because this is kind of like, what did you do for me today?


James Buckley:

What have you done for me lately?


Tiffani Bova:

Yes, Janet Jackson, right? Ultimately, you get rejected every time you pick up the phone and it's a cold call. Every time you say, you have to deal with the rejection all the time. You better have sort of thick skin know how to deal with rejection, number one. Number two, you are not going to win every deal. I mean, the stats out now are some little north of 50% of people will miss a quarter this year.


James Buckley:

50%?


Tiffani Bova:

50%, and 66% of their time is spent on non-selling activities. They are inefficient, and they are missing quarter.


James Buckley:

Doing things like managing data and prospecting, and not doing the selling part of it.


Tiffani Bova:

They are not selling, right?


James Buckley:

Yeah.


Tiffani Bova:

So you are like, "You are stressed, because like, "I just want to be selling. I got to do all this other stuff. Management is making me do that. I've been rejected 99 times today. I just need one person to just say yes for a meeting for me." It's the constant reassurance personally like you've got to have the fortitude to just get up every day, and go, "I'm going to face this day no matter what happens." sales there is also the challenge of, sometimes it's a very low base pay. Like minimum wage pay, and then you have this upside on the quarter. You know if you are not killing the deal, and you are not making quarter, you are not going to make your bills.


James Buckley:

That's right.


Tiffani Bova:

Some industries, like real estate, you make no money if you sell nothing, at all. I think the average amount of realtors across the country sell an average of 1.5 homes a year.


James Buckley:

It's very low.


Tiffani Bova:

It's very low. That means you always hear about the high performers, but the mass of people sell a home, or two all year. Which means, how do you live? Right?


James Buckley:

Right.


Tiffani Bova:

If you have children, you are a single parent, or you are the breadwinner of the household,


James Buckley:

Or you have student loans.


Tiffani Bova:

You have student loans. I mean, I think the stress comes with, there is high stress, high reward. There is high commitment, there is high reward. There is, you got to have your big girl, big boy pants on every single day.


James Buckley:

That's right.


Tiffani Bova:

There is high reward. The sky is the limit, you can earn a lot of money selling if you are really good at it. You can be okay at it, and it can still be stressful. I think it requires a very specific kind of personality. I was an athlete my whole life, and I think that that really shaped me into being able to be competitive. Loss with my head held high, with humility, coaches, teams, individual contributor.


James Buckley:

That's right.


Tiffani Bova:

I learned all those skills. I think it's a great place to find sales people, like athletes are a great place, and really good communicators. If you have ... If you don't like rejection, and you don't like the uncertainty of what you are going to earn or not, sales is probably not for you.


James Buckley:

I would agree. I think there is an expectation that salespeople have to have coming into the role to know that they are going to have to work, but how much are they going to have to work, and what is the relationship between marketing and sales typically hinges on that kind of number. To give you a good example, on our survey here, 67 respondents said that they often worked extra long hours, way above and beyond the contracted hours. I want to know, what that looks like for sales people at a mass level.


James Buckley:

67% is not peanuts, out of the 91, that is way over the mark for half. If we are to work 40 hours a week, 50 hours a week. Fine. I feel like that's relatively normal. I'm happy to put an extra hour or two a day, to network, and build prospect, and pipeline. I feel like that's a healthy activity to do. today's society, today's technological world, we don't have the burden of having to be at the office and sitting at our desk, because that's where the good internet is. We all have good internet, we all have mobile devices.


James Buckley:

I have a little tiny computer my pocket, that I can take the bus home, and spend that hour on the bus networking, and having conversations with people. To some extent, as you said, you got to put those big boy pants on, big girl pants on, and realize that this is the role you signed up for, and the sacrifices that you make are what yields that quarter at the end of the month, so that you can consistently hit those goals. So that you can find that time after you hit that goal to take to yourself. So if you are a salesperson, I know a lot of sales people that will take time off at the end of their month. I find that to be poor planning.


James Buckley:

I think salespeople who are smarter, they would take it at the beginning of the month, so they could come back strong at the beginning of the month, after a couple of days off, feeling refreshed, and really hammer home the effectiveness that they can deliver for their prospects. What are your thoughts on the percentage of people, 67% going above and beyond and feeling burned down as a result of working too much?


Tiffani Bova:

Well, it goes back to what I was saying a little while ago. I think sales is one of those professions, it's almost like a doctor. You are on call 24/7. 67% of that, if I were to really go, reach out and ask those people, maybe because you answered a client text message, or email, or phone call at eight o'clock on a Thursday night, because that's when they could get back to you, because they are working hard. Then they reach out to you and they want you to be available. Sometimes we have to be as available as our clients want us to be available.


James Buckley:

That's right.


Tiffani Bova:

Part of that is, this unrealistic expectation that everyone wants an instantaneous response, and we've also rained our clients to do that. If we don't do it we worry that the risk would be they'd go somewhere else. I'd say I almost don't agree with do it at the beginning of the month, do it at the end of the month. I think this is where if I could go back to my sales leadership role, would be, how do I help every day? Because I think that the grind over time, you just start to become less effective. You are tired, you are not paying attention meetings, you are not following. The balls get dropped.


James Buckley:

I don't feel like taking notes today.


Tiffani Bova:

Whatever it might be. Because you are just burned out. What's a way that you can do where you carve an hour out a day to just do things that you want to do? It could be listening to a podcast, it could be going for a walk, it could be talking with a coach or a mentor, or it could be something that you do-


James Buckley:

Go to the gym at lunch.


Tiffani Bova:

Go to the gym at lunch, whatever it might be. I think that recharge is really important, because just adding another hour on the day, and then saying, "It's okay, I'll put it in the bank at the end of the month." Taking three days is never going to make up for the two hours a day over the course of the 20 days, which is 60 hours, over the course of a month that you've spent. You've showed up late, you haven't had dinner with your family. You are not doing things on weekends.


James Buckley:

Your missed your daughter's recital. There is probably list of things.


Tiffani Bova:

That goes back to what I was saying, that my thirties, it was just, there was no candle left by the time I got to 40. There was no candle left, I'd burnt it on both ends. I would say that finding a way to take the time. This goes to the sales managers, and sales leaders that are listening.


James Buckley:

Sure.


Tiffani Bova:

Kind of what I said, would I be a different manager today knowing what I do, and understanding the power that burnout has on the effectiveness of the team, and keeping people motivated and inspired to do what I need them to do every day? Versus, just letting them grind, and I'm hitting them going, "50% of you are going to miss your quarter, 60% of your time is spent on non-selling, go, go, go, go." I'd say that the sales managers have a responsibility to make sure that they are paying attention, if their team or an individual is appearing to be burned out, where they are not as talkative as they normally are, or their emails are late.


Tiffani Bova:

You can see what time they are sending you emails, at 10:00, 11:00, 12:00, two o'clock in the morning, that's a behavior you need to stop, and say, "Hey, I appreciate you working this hard, but I don't want ever to see an email from you at two o'clock in the morning." That's the manager's responsibility to not reward that behavior, to go, "Thank you for getting that to me on time."


James Buckley:

Sure.


Tiffani Bova:

Instead of just saying, "I see it came at 2:00 in the morning, which leads me to believe you didn't get a chance to do it. What can I carve off your plate, so that you can focus on this? Because I don't want you to be doing it at 2:00 in the morning."


James Buckley:

That's interesting.


Tiffani Bova:

Great question, I'd actually say that the sales manager is going to have far more ability to impact the team than the CEO would. The CEO should set a cultural temperature, for mindfulness and burnout, and the wellbeing of his or her employees.


James Buckley:

Good communicating.


Tiffani Bova:

Giving tools and ability to, if they are trouble-


James Buckley:

Resources.


Tiffani Bova:

Resources to go for help. I think that's the role of the CEO. As a manager of a team, I'm just using this as an example. As a manager I'm not going to send emails to my team on the weekend. That's my steadfast rule, I'm just making this as an example for you. If you do, it's because of one, two, or three reasons. There is only one, two, or three reasons that I would send it. Like all of a sudden some fire happened, and whatever.


Tiffani Bova:

For general, when I sit down on a Saturday as a manager and I choose to spend three hours to catch up on email, and I start to send out a flurry of emails. Then it's telling everyone else, you need to answer me on a Saturday. That would be one thing to do is just to have a rule, we are not going to do emails between 7:00 and 7:00, or we are not going to do them on weekends. If you do, it needs to be for these reasons. Try to get people out of those habits of not feeling like they are constantly tethered to phone, email, text, social media.


Tiffani Bova:

Another could be where, like that example, where the manager is really aware of when a behavior moves outside of that time, or you start to notice that somebody's behavior is, they are a little more relaxed, or tired, or they are showing up late to meetings, or they are starting to really drop the ball. It's the role of the manager to then step up and say, "Let me pull you aside. I care about you. I want to make sure you are healthy and everything is okay." It's not just about the quarter.


James Buckley:

That's right.


Tiffani Bova:

We need to do both, but you need to take care of ... What can I do to help take some of this off your plate? I think that's what didn't do as a sales manager, when I was just pushing and grinding, and pushing and grinding. I like to have fun.


James Buckley:

Not a stickler.


Tiffani Bova:

Not a stickler. I wanted to hit numbers and when pressure rolled downhill to me-


James Buckley:

It rolls downhill to others.


Tiffani Bova:

I would buffer 50% of it, and I'd only give them 50% of it, which might be a lot. Some people don't take that kind of pressure well.


James Buckley:

Indeed.


Tiffani Bova:

Other people thrive in that kind of pressure. Once again, as a manager, not everyone is the same, not everyone is going to respond.


James Buckley:

I'm fond of saying that not everyone likes to be coached the same. You can't have a blanket approach when you are dealing with a team. You can have blanket statements, you can have blanket meetings, you can have informative meetings, where you tell people what's happening, and changes that are taking place as a unit, but when it comes to individual coaching, there are no processes for an individual. It just takes relationship building, and knowing, as you said earlier, what someone's strengths, and non-strengths are, so that you can leverage that data, that knowledge that you've accumulated over time about that individual order to be effective.


James Buckley:

I like that approach because I think it's very real, and I think it's much more impactful. If you look at people coming out of college at 24 years old, 23 years old, I'm looking at a group of kids that if you started them at 35, $40,000 a year, plus commission, it'd be more money that they made their entire college career working part-time jobs. It's a good opportunity for them to spend a year underneath you as a sales professional, as a leader, cutting their teeth, learning the ropes, figuring how to do this, have that great conversation, and really connect with people, and dial what it is to be a professional, an industry that is constantly growing, and ever-changing.


James Buckley:

What I see is that we have two conflicting pieces of data. One, everybody seems to be hyper-stressed. Two, they are afraid to come forward and say something for fear of the stigma that exists, when you are dealing with mental health issues like burnout or anxiety. That sigma can be daunting sometimes. Yet, 71% report that their company has resources available to them, to help them cope with this. It's interesting to me that such a high percentage reports that they feel that way, but yet another percentage reports, "No, I don't want to say anything, because I just have to keep trying harder. I just have to keep grinding. I just have to keep going. Stay the course." I say this a lot. Why have that feeling and have that resource and not take advantage of it?


Tiffani Bova:

I think that's a great question, because I wonder if my thirties, if there had been a resource, there wasn't. But had there been one, if I would have walked in.


James Buckley:

Do you think you would have?


Tiffani Bova:

I don't know, because with retrospect I think I realized how burnt out I was. When I was it-


James Buckley:

Hindsight 2020.


Tiffani Bova:

Yeah, I was it. I was like, "What?"


James Buckley:

No way, I'm doing awesome.


Tiffani Bova:

It's Monday, I'm at the office at 7:00, I leave at ... I mean, you know what I mean?


James Buckley:

Yeah.


Tiffani Bova:

I had a complete routine. My EA at the time, Julie, pretty much managed my life. She would just point to me where I needed to go, what meeting I needed to go into, and what I needed to do. Without her the wheels would have fallen off. I don't know if I would have gone-


James Buckley:

Julie, did you say Julie?


Tiffani Bova:

Julie, yeah.


James Buckley:

Shout out to you Julie.


Tiffani Bova:

Yeah, shout to you Julie.


James Buckley:

You made it happen.


Tiffani Bova:

You did, you totally made it happen.


James Buckley:

No one can do it alone.


Tiffani Bova:

Anybody who knows me during that time will know exactly what I'm talking about. She was awesome. I would say I don't know if I would have. I think that today we are a different time. I think the leader who also has a high empathy quotient


James Buckley:

Amen, there it is.


Tiffani Bova:

Is really powerful. You can be a really good leader, but if you have no empathy people aren't going to get that boat, and go on this journey with you.


James Buckley:

Yeah.


Tiffani Bova:

I would say, going back to strengths and non-strengths. If you are listening and you know that you do not have a high empathy quotient. I would go as a leader, and go to those help professionals, the resources you have at work, and go, "Look, this is a non-strength for me. I don't know how to approach people on this. What I'd like to do is once a month set up a time where my team comes for 15 minutes, and you just do a touch base with them. If there is anything I need to know, then we'll have a meeting at the end of that, and you can tell me, here are the things I should look out for. So that you can help me, because I'm not as aware, or I don't know what to do with that kind of situation. I may even learn along the way that maybe I want to talk to somebody too.


James Buckley:

Right.


Tiffani Bova:

If you know that's a non-strength of yours. Then it's your responsibility as a manager of a team, of people who rely on you to make sure that they are okay every single day. That you make the first step. If you do it, then you can give it as an example. I went to go to talk to Molly or Bob. I we had this resource, and I was feeling totally burnout, like last week kicked my ass. I just didn't know what to do to get my head above water. I went and talked to her. She gave me these three things, how many of you feel like that? Something that simple, but you've said, "I feel it. I've done this. It's okay." You open it up. They may not, ... Not everyone will raise their hand and go, "God, I can talk about it now."


James Buckley:

Thank you.


Tiffani Bova:

Yeah, that's not going to happen. I think setting up that time where you just do it, where every month everyone has to go for a 15 minute touch base, and I'm going to leave it to you for your responsibility, but you have to do it.


James Buckley:

You have to do it.


Tiffani Bova:

You have to do it.


Tiffani Bova:

Maybe over time you'll stop talking about the kids, and sports, and whatever, and you may open up to something. They know how to get you to open up if needed.


James Buckley:

They do.


Tiffani Bova:

As a manager you have to set the example, but this has everything to do with empathy, and going back to, if it's a non-strength of yours, then lean on the people who this is what they do for a living. But do not put your head the sand and act like it's not happening. If 67% of the people on the survey say that they are feeling stressed, 67% of your team is feeling stressed. If they feel that it's going to hinder their career, then your team is feeling that. You are not immune to the fact that people are feeling burnt out, stressed, and need help.


James Buckley:

That's right.


James Buckley:

Don't fall into that trap. If you are a leader out there listening to this, don't fall into that trap of thinking that's not me. You'll never know until you talk to your team about it, and be open about what your expectations are.


James Buckley:

We have a lot of really interesting s on the survey that came through. A lot of people were saying they felt like burnout was a real threat, but specifically the service industry I saw a tweet, you were on the news, what show was it that you were on? Where you were talking about customer service in general, and how it's one of the most stressful industries to be today. You had mentioned something about why customer service is such a stressful environment, and why people that customer service deal with interesting people for lack of better phrasing? I think you said it much better than I did just now.


James Buckley:

As somebody that's sales, it's sort of hand in hand with customer, service, right? I know a lot of salespeople that call themselves customer service, I know a lot of customer service people that say they are sales. It's sort of one and the same today's world. What kind of mechanisms do you recommend for salespeople that are as you said earlier, constantly feeling that sense of rejection, and unable to catch up, no matter what they do, because there is just so much no out there. We are programmed now to decline a new connection, because we are afraid that it might, to your point earlier, waste our time.


Tiffani Bova:

Right.


James Buckley:

Our time is so valuable and crucial to our success, our team's success. I would rather give my time to my team than I would a prospect on some days, because I feel it would be more beneficial for the team than my pocketbook dealing with this prospect today. How do you find that line the sand so to speak?


Tiffani Bova:

For customer service specifically?


James Buckley:

Yeah, specifically customer service.


Tiffani Bova:

There was a fantastic article the Wall Street Journal, it depends on when this airs, but I'm sure we can dig it up. It literally was like customer service is almost a new therapy.


James Buckley:

Tell me more about that.


Tiffani Bova:

Because it was really customers call and sort of go, "I can't get a hold of my daughter, I don't know how to long distance call, can you step me through this?" Or "Oh my God, this didn't fix, or this didn't work. It came and it was," and they are just throwing up a problem on you. It's your job to kind of like, especially if they are really angry, calm them down. And help them solve a problem.


James Buckley:

Yeah. It's okay.


Tiffani Bova:

some organizations, the example that was used was Zappos, was how long that customer service organization, customer success organization will stay on the phone with the customer. That is very different than some organizations that say you can only be on the line with a customer for two minutes, three minutes, four minutes. They view it as a call center, and it's just grinding a very similar way to sales like, how many people did you call? How many calls did you take? How much revenue did you sell? How much revenue did you save?


James Buckley:

Everything is attached to a dollar.


Tiffani Bova:

How many phone calls did you make? How many did you answer? It's very attached to a metric, on the sales side it's rejection, on the customer service side it's just pissed off customers usually.


James Buckley:

Right.


Tiffani Bova:

Those are two very stressful situations.


James Buckley:

Indeed.


Tiffani Bova:

I would say on both fronts, taking that time that you know customer service that people rarely call and go, "I just wanted to say how fantastic I think your product was, and that I love you today. That's all I wanted to say."


James Buckley:

Just calling to give you some positive vibe.


Tiffani Bova:

Any customer service people, or customer success people that hear that, please let us know. Because the mean of a hundred calls you get, how many tell you they love you, and how many tell you you suck?


James Buckley:

It's probably zero. I think the thing that people hear all the time is like do a great job and someone tells 10 people, do a bad job and someone tweets it.


Tiffani Bova:

Right, and you have people listening on your phone calls, judging you on how you've handled a really irate customer. You can have zero emotion. All of the things that's very difficult, I think customer services, equally, equally tough. To your point, I often say that customer service is the new Salesforce towards, the future, because they have this ability to upsell and cross-sell, and they are nurturing the existing base of customers you have, hence customer success versus sales.


Tiffani Bova:

Those two things together, and so that goes to the question that was asked earlier about, this is where I really think the CEO plays a role is what is the feeling, and approach that the company has of the role of customer service? A cost center that is just a place where all stuff rolls downhill and it ends up that bucket. Salespeople are often guilty of selling things, tossing it over the fence, and letting customer service deal with it.


James Buckley:

That's true.


Tiffani Bova:

That's also not fair.


James Buckley:

That is true.


Tiffani Bova:

Bringing those two things together needs to be the sort of view of it's not only for the customer's benefit, but it's just for the health of the business, I mean, you want people to work together.


James Buckley:

That's right, collaboration is key, and you don't just collaborate internally, you collaborate with your prospects and customers too. I have been noted for saying for many years now, it used to be enough to make a sale. It really did, it used to be enough, if I used to sell one time sales. We were doing credit cards, and cruise tickets. We would literally just call people and say, "Hi, thanks for signing up for this awesome Discover card. We'd like to offer you a cruise at this rate."


James Buckley:

People would say yes or no. I'll tell you the truth, you'd make a sale, and you'd go, "I'm awesome." That was the end of the conversation, you never have to talk to that person again. They bought the tickets from you, thank you so much for your business.


Tiffani Bova:

Then they call up, they call customer service and go, "This guy, dude, whatever his name was, James, John, Jerry, whatever. Sold me something I don't even want."


James Buckley:

I don't want, I woke up today and changed my mind.


Tiffani Bova:

As a matter of fact, I don't even think I talked to him, was it really me? This charge is here on my credit card, it wasn't even me.


James Buckley:

It wasn't even me. I didn't order that.


Tiffani Bova:

Now it's your problem, not my problem.


James Buckley:

Okay.


Tiffani Bova:

And I'm just going to keep saying, let me talk to your supervisor, let me talk to your supervisor, let me talk to your supervisor. Then it gets all the way to the top supervisor, who then ends up giving the credit. And all of a sudden it starts rolling down, and then it goes back to me the customer service agent, who was just doing my job.


James Buckley:

That's right.


Tiffani Bova:

Because James, John, Jerry, whoever, sold something that this customer didn't want. You are like, "That's not what happened."


James Buckley:

It was never a good sale to begwith, right?


Tiffani Bova:

It was never.


Tiffani Bova:

Or you are like, "Wait a second, she was all thrilled what happened the 12 hour period?"


James Buckley:

What happened? Her husband got home and changed her mind for her, who knows?


Tiffani Bova:

Then someone is like, "Well, let me go listen to the recording." Now it's like, let me take that little hair, and I'm going to split it 900 ways, and I'm going to pick at everything you did incorrectly or correctly, right?


James Buckley:

That's right.


Tiffani Bova:

Which goes back to, it's stressful, I'm burnt, I don't feel appreciated. No one is looking out for me.


James Buckley:

It changes everything about the way you perform every day.


Tiffani Bova:

Every day.


James Buckley:

Every day.


Tiffani Bova:

Because every day as a salesperson.


James Buckley:

That's right.


Tiffani Bova:

Every day as a customer service rep, not every day as a marketer, not every day as a product manager.


James Buckley:

Yeah.


Tiffani Bova:

Not every day as someone HR, or legal, or whatever else the company, but everyday sales and every day customer service you are judged, a hundred times.


James Buckley:

I agree with you 100%. I have said all the time that every sale cycle looks pretty much the same. We like to put little tiny things inside of it that are our own little like, this helps, and that helps, but I think it's all based on six primary goals. Content is the road to connection, connection leads to conversation. That conversation should grow into a relationship, or some people call this trust. Once you have that, you should have no problem asking for an opportunity, and the law of averages says the more opportunities we have the more sales we make.


James Buckley:

It's not enough to just make that sale anymore. We have to then maintathat relationship for 365 days, and be sure that it's a valuable one for our person, our customer, our prospect. That way they feel like they are connected to us. It's not enough to just find the value, we have to also be connected to our audience, and to the people that are purchasing our products, every day, every year, every quarter.


James Buckley:

For a salesperson that's out there celebrating that demo, stop it. That demo is just the beginning, it's a seed that you've planted the hopes that it will survive and grow into a giant oak one day.


Tiffani Bova:

I would say that here is where the rubber meets the road for me. Is that today the metrics that are used to track sales performance, and customer service performance, are actually leading those roles to the road of burnout. Did you call a hundred people, did you answer a hundred calls? Did you hit your quarter? Did you save this many sales? The metric is driving this constant hamster wheel, law of averages, if I talk to a hundred people, 10 will make a meeting, two will book-


James Buckley:

How many doors do I need to knock on?


Tiffani Bova:

How many doors?


Tiffani Bova:

This is where leaders, CEOs who are listening to this, who go, what could I put behind this arrow to try to start to make some change? One was, giving the opportunity for people to have a place to go when they are feeling burnt out, and making it part of the role. You need to go 15 a month, or half hour a month, whatever you want to do. If you don't have someone in-house, have someone come for that day or two that you bring just for your team. Do not use the excuse that there is no one in-house. Go to HR, work it out.


Tiffani Bova:

On the flip of it is putting metrics place that are much more relationship oriented. Following your sort of example that you just gave, many companies, research we've done at Salesforce, have been trying to flip sales and customer service metrics to be much more customer oriented. It could be net promoter scores, it could be customer satisfaction, it could be churn rates. It could be all of these leading indicators that are more relationship based, and not just the hardcore metrics, that my opinion just drive that behavior to if I call a hundred people, 10 will call me, two will-


James Buckley:

That's right.


Tiffani Bova:

I show up to work, I'm customer service, oh my God, I'm going to take 320 calls today on average, because I've done that for the last 12 months. Of the 320, 319 of them are going to yell at me. I can't wait to go to work.


James Buckley:

Yeah, I'm super pumped. Actually I'm feeling kind of sick.


Tiffani Bova:

Right? And so what happens when people are grinding at work? They call sick.


James Buckley:

They do.


Tiffani Bova:

Think about how could you adjust some of the metrics to actually give people, your people sales and customer service sort of a little bit of breathing room to make those connections, and have it be as important if not more important than the hardcore metrics. For a seller, I don't care if you call a hundred people or a thousand people. I just need you to sell. If you only need to sell 10, and she needs to call 20, and he needs to call 50.


James Buckley:

That is what it is.


Tiffani Bova:

I just need you to be you, lean on your strengths, go get the business done, right?


James Buckley:

Yeah.


Tiffani Bova:

For me to micromanage you, on both accounts, on metrics, I think leads us down this path of, I'm just constantly chasing approval from my managers, the check on the box that I'm doing what I'm supposed to do, and more importantly I'm hitting my numbers.


James Buckley:

What bothers me as a leader about metrics based selling practices is that when you assign that metric, the salesperson is going to hit that goal, but that doesn't mean you are going to see results as a leader. Oftentimes you see the goals consistently being hit. I made 60 calls today, I sent 40 emails, I had 10 cold calls. I added 15 people to my cadences. Pick a metric that you'd like to focus on, and then at the end of the month, no demos have been set, no meetings have been set, no closes have happened.


James Buckley:

That leader will still come out of their office and go, "Hi, where is all the success?" That sales representative will try and go, "I don't know, but I've met all your metrics."


Tiffani Bova:

That's because like I said, 66% of time is spent on non-selling. Unfortunately this goes back to the leaders. The leaders need to rethink the metrics. This is a whole another podcast.


James Buckley:

We can do it.


Tiffani Bova:

The leaders need to rethink the metrics, and really for the output, not the input, but the output.


James Buckley:

Sure.


Tiffani Bova:

Because for example, I might be really good at cold calling, you might be really good at emails, but you want me to do 50 emails, and you to do 50 phone calls, and I would rather do ... I'm much better at doing this, you are much better at doing that. The end result is we set three demos. I don't care how you do it, LinkedIn, social, phone call, email.


James Buckley:

It doesn't matter.


Tiffani Bova:

We need three demos, that's the output I need. If you are not setting the demos then I can peel back and go, "Well, what are you doing? Are you calling? Are you emailing? Maybe that's not for you. Let's find another way, what is it?"


James Buckley:

Time management kind of a focus.


Tiffani Bova:

It should really be about the output. While I obviously work for a CRM company, salespeople and customer service agents don't wake up every day and go, "I can't wait today to enter." It's not a goal of ours. We have to find ways to start to use technology in different ways. Using machine learning and artificial intelligence to take some of those tasks off the plate of both roles.


James Buckley:

Yes.


Tiffani Bova:

Allowing them to free up, so that intelligence can tell me, Tiffani does better when she calls than when she emails. James is much better when he emails than when he calls. James, you email, I call-


James Buckley:

Let's make it happen.


Tiffani Bova:

Let's make it happen.


James Buckley:

That's right.


Tiffani Bova:

As a manager, going back to your comment about you can't coach everyone the same. Not everyone is a running back, not everyone is a kicker, not everyone is a quarterback, not everyone is a lineman. It has to be a team and everyone is playing their role. I think it's important as a leader not only to have this empathy cushion, but also really using all the data that we have now at our disposal to make very different decisions about how you grew.


Tiffani Bova:

That was really sort of the genesis of on one of your very first questions on Growth IQ, it was how do we reframe and put a modern twist on the way businesses have grown? It's really being powered by all this stuff we have now. Social, mobile, cloud, big data, and then AI, IoT, machine learning. The fourth industrial revolution all sort of rolled up.


James Buckley:

Rolled up into one. I agree. For those of you out here listening to this. I think that it's supposed to be ... Don't forget, it's supposed to be fun. You are supposed to enjoy what you do every day when you get up in the morning. If you don't, you should change what you do, because life is too short to wake up miserable every day. I can't stress that enough to those salespeople out there that struggle with why am I failing, or why am I feeling the way that I feel? It is easy to fall into that.


James Buckley:

Tiffani, tell everybody how they can reach you, and what the best way to consume your content and learn from you is. We do have to talk about your podcast before you leave.


Tiffani Bova:

Okay. I have a podcast called What's Next. I am pretty active on social media, you can connect with me on LinkedIn, or on Twitter, on Instagram. I'm pretty responsive. Ultimately, I'm always looking for feedback. I'd love to hear what resonated with you from this conversation, what you didn't agree with is really good. That's really good content for me to hear what you didn't agree with, because this is all about trying to learn how I have this wonderful opportunity to have a platform to share these stories. I'd rather share stories that resonate with people than share stories that people completely turn off to.


James Buckley:

For me, the best feedback I can give you is that I think there is a comfortable balance between KPIs and relationship based selling. We just have to find it, it's there. I know it's there, because I ride that fence every day. I do stuff like this, and yet, I'm an SDR at heart. I will always be an SDR. My heart belongs to the hunt is what I say. New business, new conversations is my addiction. Yet, because I film with my producer Grant Greene every day, I meet awesome people like you. I create amazing content and this awesome opportunity.


James Buckley:

I still go over there to my laptop and I still pick up the phone and dial 15 people the next hour and a half if I have to. I still send 20 cold emails. I still use AI to see what is happening with my emails after I send them, and what the open rates are, so that I can gauge interest. I still do all the things that SDRs have to do, and I love my job. I feel stressed out, because I love my job. I've said many meetings before that the jobs sometimes you want to quit are the best ones.


Tiffani Bova:

Well, I'd say this. I'd say for those of you listening and say, "Maybe I'm not so happy at my job. Maybe I'd like to be an SDR, maybe I'd like to get marketing, maybe I'd like to get customer service." I did a webinar with Seth Godin, who is sort of the master of all things marketing.


James Buckley:

That's right.


Tiffani Bova:

I've known Seth for a really long time, and for those of you who don't know the story, the reason I actually wrote the book is because Seth told me I should write the book. I said, "Okay. Let me think on that." It took me a couple of years, but I did listen.


James Buckley:

You helped make this Monster Seth.


Tiffani Bova:

Pretty much. I met him 2000. There are all kinds of reasons that Seth is important my life. I would say this is that, he said to me when I said, "If somebody is listening to this and they want to get into marketing, and they are their career. What do you recommend?" He said, "Go market." He goes, "Go market for your girl scout cookies, for the PTA, for your sports team." If you want to sell like sell whatever, Krispy Kreames to go earn money for your kid's hockey team or basketball team, whatever. go sell, learn how to sell. If you want to give presentations, go give presentations to a small group, to a bigger group. Work for free, learn your craft, find what-


James Buckley:

Hone your skills.


Tiffani Bova:

Hone your skills and find your way. Then you can say, "Okay, I actually do like that better." Instead of putting so much pressure on yourself that you wake up everyday and you are not happy. Unfortunately, the averages are that most people are not, and they don't get the opportunity to say, "I love what I do everyday. I feel blessed." Do you feel blessed?


James Buckley:

I sure do.


Tiffani Bova:

If you are struggling with what you are doing, and you are trying to find your next path, I would take that piece of advice. Whatever you think it might be, go try it, learn and then if you really like it, one, then you got to figure out, how do I get paid to do what I love doing? That's the trick.


James Buckley:

That's the win.


Tiffani Bova:

That's the win. Or how do I keep doing what I'm doing part-time, and how do I do what I really love part-time until I can get to a place where I really love full-time? I would say my last piece of advice is to trust the process.


James Buckley:

Sure.


Tiffani Bova:

If I knew as I've said a number of times, back when I was 30 what I know now, would I have done things differently? Absolutely. But I didn't know what my end game was, I didn't know, trust me I never thought I'd write a book, trust me I never thought I'd work for Salesforce. Trust me ... I wouldn't be on these lists that you mentioned, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing, no way that I thought that that's what it was going to be. Maybe I thought that would be awesome, but I didn't know that each little thing I did was leading me closer and closer.


James Buckley:

That's right.


Tiffani Bova:

To an opportunity that Salesforce then creates a position for me. I think there is a lot to be said for trusting the process.


James Buckley:

Well, Tiffani, I can't thank you enough for all your insights. This has been an incredible conversation. I really have enjoyed sitting across from you and just absorbing everything that you have.


Tiffani Bova:

Excellent. Well, thank you. Yeah, this was great, it was fun.


James Buckley:

I appreciate everything that you've given our audience today. Check us out at uncrushed.org. We are absolutely thrilled to be bringing experts like Tiffani to the table so that you can all learn what it is to be uncrushed, to be somebody that is not daunted by the challenges of every day life, career, goals, family, and balance general. I would love to hear your story. Check us out at uncrushed.org. Hit subscribe if this has been a helpful podcast for you, or even if you just found this insightful, and interesting like I did.


James Buckley:

I don't think that there is a better podcast out there right now than UNCrushed, and Whats Next, and Make it Happen Mondays, and all these fantastic insightful things that are being said our community. Support us, support our guest, go follow Tiffani, she truly is a wealth of knowledge to be learned from. Tiffani, thanks so much for the time.


Tiffani Bova:

Thank you.